Band: The Shaggs

[gio]

1969 band from New Hampshire composed of the Wiggins sisters, whose only album, "Philosophy of the World" was catalyzed by their father's delusional dreams of pop stardom. Pathetically incapable of playing cohesive music. They were enthusiastically endorsed by Frank Zappa.

[kerble]

In theory, Not Crap as the story is fascinating.

I got the Shaggs disc as a gift and it drove me up the wall. It made me very angry and I don't like listening to it.

the Crapps.





Faiz

[Dylan]

Kerbsie, I thought you'd be all over that shit!

One of my favourite bands ever. The internal logic is astounding to me - at first listen you perceive them to be incompetent, but deeper listening reveals levels of consistency and complexity. It's true!

[Mayfair]

I agree Dylan. That is the most interesting part, the way they seem to truly follow their own internal beat and map, beats and maps that are very hard to follow as a listener. John Lee Hooker and Leadbelly both had similar singular ways of going forward.


I also agree at first listen I laughed out loud. It seemed inept. It seemed like a put on. I do not think either now. I think that is the way they heard it in their heads or perhaps they heard something else and this is as close as they could come. Either way, it is still very interesting to me.

I still laugh but more out of joy.

[kerble]

It was bought for me under those exact pretenses (that I would be all over it). Some unspeakable force repells me. I don't know. Part of me wishes I could love them, part of me is glad I don't.

There's a musical about them now, no? Anyone see it? Like I said, the backstory is awesome. And I guess "My Pal Foot Foot" is Okay.



Faiz

[the Classical]

I played them once for my mom

she asked "Is this supposed to be good?"


not crap!

[gio]

I agree Dylan. That is the most interesting part, the way they seem to truly follow their own internal beat and map, beats and maps that are very hard to follow as a listener. John Lee Hooker and Leadbelly both had similar singular ways of going forward.


I also agree at first listen I laughed out loud. It seemed inept. It seemed like a put on. I do not think either now. I think that is the way they heard it in their heads or perhaps they heard something else and this is as close as they could come. Either way, it is still very interesting to me.

Ah, quite excellent responses, from all of you. I believe we are touching on the roots of what makes crap music interesting, thus de-crappifying it.

It appears we have here some 'outsider artists' of pop. The awareness of traditional music form is completely absent, and hence constraints are lifted.

Let us go to Zimbabwe and loan Ampeg V4s and Gibson Invaders to the local residents. And I do not joke. That is a potential Ph.D. thesis in ethnomusicology.

Or would that make us the neo-colonialists of music?

Think on!

regards,
Gio

[Angus Jung]

"It appears we have here some 'outsider artists' of pop. The awareness of traditional music form is completely absent, and hence constraints are lifted."

I am positive the Shaggs had great awareness of traditional music form. By this I mean I'm sure they listened devotedly to the pop music of the day. They wanted to be part of the tradition. Or at least their dad wanted them to be. It just came out a little funny.

I think the complexity in the Shaggs' music is accidental. I mean, the drummer is playing a different song than everybody else. This creates some pretty incredible/nauseating tone/rhythm juxtapositions.

If I listen to the Shaggs, the rhythm starts to permeate me. Kind of like going to see a really good Afrobeat band.

The Wiggins sister who wrote the lyrics was an excellent lyricist.

N/C

[Redline]

The Shaggs play "Philosophy Of The World" at the Lookinglass in Chi town was choice. I was surprised how "close" the actresses' came to achieving a true Shaggs sound.

Another highlight was the stage band playing the Shagg's songs tight and "professional" (maybe how the girls envisioned their sound?), and then the same song being played how it really sounded on the lp.

Not Crap.

Lester Bang's Village Voice review:
http://www.keyofz.com/keyofz/vvoice.htm

[smazur]

I was at a birthday dinner party a few months ago, and there was a guy there named Russ Hamm who is a longtime engineer/studio guy. For some reason he started telling this story about the Shaggs, which got my attention. Apparently he worked in the studio where they recorded their album (he may have even been the engineer, I can't remember). Anyway, the session started, and no one was sure what to make of it all. Was it a joke? Trying to be helpful, Russ turned to the girls' father and offered to tune up their guitars for them.

"No no,"

[gio]

excellent story.

cheers,
gio

[Mayfair]

Yes, Russ ran the session along with Charlie Dreyer if my information is correct. Wow! That is amazing!

Did anyone see the Shaggs reunite a year or two ago? The drummer for NRBQ sat in as Hellen the drummer was not able to attend.

http://home.flash.net/~tomj/shaggs/

[gio]

I am positive the Shaggs had great awareness of traditional music form. By this I mean I'm sure they listened devotedly to the pop music of the day. They wanted to be part of the tradition. Or at least their dad wanted them to be. It just came out a little funny.

Good point, but I meant in terms of traditional western composition, i.e. notes, scales, etc. Well, I don't know what they did and didn't 'know', but they certainly appear to have been free of the restrictions that academic musical training creates.

No 'knowledge' = no restrictions. No constraints, like I said.

Wow, a Shaggs movie is in the making.

[Angus Jung]

"No 'knowledge' = no restrictions. No constraints, like I said. "

This idea always seems like it should be really liberating and incredible, but in my experience the artists with "no 'knowledge'" who end up doing something that not only doesn't suck complete shit, but actually creates new worlds of possibilty directly attributable to their ignorance of the rules, is like one in a billion.

The Shaggs maybe being one of those ones.

[Dylan]

"No 'knowledge' = no restrictions. No constraints, like I said. "

This idea always seems like it should be really liberating and incredible, but in my experience the artists with "no 'knowledge'" who end up doing something that not only doesn't suck complete shit, but actually creates new worlds of possibilty directly attributable to their ignorance of the rules, is like one in a billion.

The Shaggs maybe being one of those ones.

Yeah, it's interesting how "no knowledge" turns into "same old knowledge" pretty quickly.

[gio]

i will agree that if you're trying to do something culturally meaningful, ignorance is a terrible way to go about it.

the thing that is charming and interesting about the shaggs is that they appear to have had no interest whatsoever in whether or not they 'suck complete shit.'

if you have ever witnessed a 3-year-old playing a piano, you should get what i mean.

and sometimes, through avenues that i don't understand, something can become culturally meaningful, without a second thought. Or maybe with a second thought, though not their own--after all, pop stardom was ol' Mr. Wiggins' dream, right? Well, instead they end up with cult stardom.

I think there's a more general phenomenon at work here, which is what I find so fascinating about these ladies, and is external to the music--more of a cultural question.

Yeah, it's interesting how "no knowledge" turns into "same old knowledge" pretty quickly

Dylan, I'm certain that if the Shaggs put out more material, it would be complete garbage. There's a gimmick element at work here, and certainly a degree of randomness in their notoriety, and musically there's no way they can 'develop' what they did, which was an utter lack of development. But The Philosophy of the World has taken its place in the cult-pop canon, it's fixed, c'est la musique en societe.

As for bands that say, "aw, we don't need to know what we're doing--we're original!" that's utter bullshit. yes, those bands will be doomed to regress to dull unoriginality, even worse than if they tried because they won't even be aware of it due to cultural ignorance.

but yeah, every so often naivete can produce an inimitable gem.

i'd venture to say it could be described probabilistically, but i prefer to assess music qualitatively, so I don't really care.

no knowledge turns into the same old knowledge as soon as knowledge enters the picture, and then you have to try really hard to keep it from being the same old knowledge. we're all alloyed with knowledge. but if you catch it pre-knowledge, well, then it could be interesting.

To paraphrase an oft-misquoted statement by Picasso:

'When I was a child I could draw like Raphael,
but it took me a lifetime to draw like a child'

-gio

[Mr. Chimp]

I equate a Shaggs LP listening experience with the experience of listening to the sounds of a tiger, a bicycle, a bag of trowels, and two fistfulls of 1971-World-Marble-Championship-Winning marbles down several flights of metal stairs.

That is all I have to say.

[Dylan]

Yeah, it's interesting how "no knowledge" turns into "same old knowledge" pretty quickly

Dylan, I'm certain that if the Shaggs put out more material, it would be complete garbage. There's a gimmick element at work here, and certainly a degree of randomness in their notoriety, and musically there's no way they can 'develop' what they did, which was an utter lack of development. But The Philosophy of the World has taken its place in the cult-pop canon, it's fixed, c'est la musique en societe.

You don't need to assume - just pick up the Shaggs CD compilation on Ryko (Rounder?). It has some later material that is much more competent (even "listenable" to some), indicating that they maybe learned a little too much between recordings.

I totally agree with everything you had said, but I didn't feel like quoting all of it.

[ubercat]

Not Crap. I'm offended by the very question!

[Sebastian J.]

NOT CRAP !