Mellotron

[cowtown14]

I notice a mellotron on your equipment/instrument list. What tape/instrument sets do you have on that and what is the guestimated set-up time? Any reliability issues.

Hope this isn't a duplicate inquiry but I couldn't spot anything on my search.

[steve]

We have a tape set that has flute, violins and 'cello. We have another set, but I don't remember what's on it. It takes about 15 minutes to warm up and be stable in tuning.

The mellotron should not be expected to be rigidly in tune. It can be tuned, and usually sounds good in context, but the notes were recorded individually, with vibrato, and can only be tuned globally.

There is also some unavoidable wow, since the system is physically so large relative to the size of the tape.

The keys also don't respond immediately to touch. You have to get used to the playing lag.

In short, you should expect it to be an instrument with a lot of personality and a little unpredictability.

If you aren't willing to put up with these quirks, you should use a sampler or an organ.

[capnreverb]

Robert Fripp has a great saying:

"Tuning a mellotron doesn't."

Genesis would tour in the early 70's with a guy whose only job was to keep the mellotron going.

Mellotron patches on fancy modern keyboards do not sound like a real mellotron much like digital loops like a headrush or boomerang do not sound anything like an echoplex. The wow and flutter and drag of the tape are as much a part of the sound as the actaul notes.

[thebookofkevin]

If you aren't willing to put up with these quirks, you should use a sampler or an organ.

Or you should build one of these.

[hiredgeek]

http://www.nyteknik.se/pub/ipsart.asp?art_id=42909
or try www.mysterycircuits.com
my friends summer project: the melloman

[cowtown14]

Does your Mellotron have one or two keyboards?

That is, some had two independent keyboards that accessed separate tape bays, some only had one.

[olivier]

it's a M400 mellotron ( 35 keys keyboard ) . MKI,MKII,M300 =2 keyboards

[Bartok]

If you aren't willing to put up with these quirks, you should use a sampler or an organ.

Or you should build one of these.

a friend of mine sent me a link to that the other day, doesnt it seem like A LOT of effort for something you could do another way?

[cowtown14]

O.,

I didn't remember anything about the specific Mellotron models, but I believe you've set me straight.

Bartok,

Not only does it seem like a lot of work, it doesn't sound like a Mellotron. The link was informative though. It seems to me that the uncertain attack of a Mellotron (when exactly will the note kick in) may be the tell-tale feature.

B.

[alex maiolo]

If you aren't willing to put up with these quirks, you should use a sampler or an organ.

Or you should build one of these.

Hey! That's my buddy Mike! I just saw him 5 minutes ago.
Actually, he and I did the tapes from my sound library. I think I get a nod in the description.
This is a cool device made by a man who loves to tackle a problem. His other stuff is amazing too. He's even built gear for Devo.

[alex maiolo]

Concerning using fake (sample based) Mellotrons, I can't recommend it enough. I disagree that tape lag doesn't show up on samples. A properly sampled Mellotron will have been done one pitch to one key, so each note's character will come through. That means C-1's slight pitch dip is in there. The breathing at D2 is there. You won't find that on crappy samples, which are usually two notes per octave, stretched over the adjacent keys.

For more authenticity, set the sample time to 8 seconds. Real Mellotrons did not use a tape loop, they dragged a spring loaded length of tape across a head, then rewound it automatically. So, notes would drop out. Good players would move fingers around so "holes" wouldn't occur. That's one of the many things a true Mellotron player knows how deal with.

The only thing that is tough to replicate is the capstan problem. On early models, when many keys were depressed, the strain on the capstan would lower pitch a little. This was *not* a desirable effect anyway.

You might want to buy a thing that EMU put a out a few years ago called "Vintage Keys," or the earlier "Classic Keys." Many of the Mellotron patches are good (some suck). The 'tron strings patch that has the 8 second drop and the flaws is very good. Radiohead used that and the voice patches on OK Computer.

Any of these methods will work well when they are behind other sounds. You won't fool a true nerd in a solo section, but behind a full band, anyone who can tell the difference, or care, needs to get a hobby.

Recording a real Mellotron reminds me of an article Larry Crane wrote about tamborines and shakers. When bands decide at the last minute to add these things when they don't know what they are doing, it translates to a heavy studio bill. I believe he called it "shaking the money maker".
I'm sure Steve and the EA guys wouldn't mind billing you for a whole day just so you can find your inner Mike Pinder, but my suggestion is to use modern gear.

Last of all, watch this film promo film:
http://www.britishpathe.com/images//pre ... 003856.WMV
Amazing! Check those tapes as they fly. An accident waiting to happen...

[cowtown14]

A,

Part of my obsession with finding a real Mellotron was my dissatisfaction with EMU samplers (I can't remember which generation but it was about three X-masses ago I was looking to 'em).

Your insights into cost effectiveness, however, mirror mine very closely and reaffirm my suspicion that we don't want to have to rely on the real thing.

Still, I might have 'em haul the beast out on the first day of our sessions to see if we can figure it out between higher priority objectives.

B.

[alex maiolo]

Did anybody watch that film?
You gotta! It's amazing!

Brian-
You can buy note-to-note sample discs on Ebay for pretty reasonable prices. There is one guy in particular who has a fancy ad. That's your guy. He's really nice. As soon as he comes up with a disc that I can dump straight into Reason, I'm buying one. For now, I would have to load note to note.
Since I have the "Mello-T" ReFill from Sonic Reality, I'm not willing to do that. Mello-T is good, but the 8 second cut off isn't there. The samples are stretched over a few keys, but that's made up for by the fact that *every* damn Streetly product is on that disc - Chamberlains, MkI, MkII, MkIII, MkIV, M400.
Really cool.
Again, used behind stuff for pads the sample stretch is not an issue.
If you decide to do a remake of Watcher Of The Skies you might be hosed.
...plus, I'd have to kick you in ass anyway.

[cowtown14]

Alex,

You’ve convinced me it’s worth looking into. Thanks for the advice.

Brian

[Mayfair]

Concerning using fake (sample based) Mellotrons, I can't recommend it enough. I disagree that tape lag doesn't show up on samples. A properly sampled Mellotron will have been done one pitch to one key, so each note's character will come through. That means C-1's slight pitch dip is in there. The breathing at D2 is there. You won't find that on crappy samples, which are usually two notes per octave, stretched over the adjacent keys.

For more authenticity, set the sample time to 8 seconds. Real Mellotrons did not use a tape loop, they dragged a spring loaded length of tape across a head, then rewound it automatically. So, notes would drop out. Good players would move fingers around so "holes" wouldn't occur. That's one of the many things a true Mellotron player knows how deal with.

The only thing that is tough to replicate is the capstan problem. On early models, when many keys were depressed, the strain on the capstan would lower pitch a little. This was *not* a desirable effect anyway.

...

Oh, but I think the lagging sound of too many keys depressed at the same time (5?) is a very nice character of the Mellotron and you are right, no sampler I have heard recreates that. Some have the 8 second thing and the need to 'reload' the 'tape'... but none that I have heard come close to how completely crazy the real deal is. I use fake ones here and there but they all seem very tame in comparison to a real Mellotron.

[alex maiolo]

Glad I could help.

I agree with Mayfair that *nothing* but a Mellotron is a Mellotron, but in addition to the other issues (tuning, noise, cost of studio futzing around time, etc) the sample discs give you yet another feature: many sound options.

The sounds on Mellotrons and Chamberlains vary depending on the model.
They all sound cool, but they also sound really different. String patches on the MkI and M400 are different recordings. In a sense, there is no one "Mellotron sound" even though we geeks can all identify that it's a Mellotron (even if it's a Chamberlain).

A lot of classic songs were recorded on a MkII. However, when the M400 came out later it was a lot easier to lug around and it was more reliable, so it was the touring choice.
So, live versions of songs sounded different, subtley, than the studio versions. The point is, even Mellotron people opted for the "convenience" of the "portable" and "reliable" Mellotron.
I guess I just used my quotation quota...
My guess is that they would have been psyched to have a software version at their disposal like we do. Read John Paul Jones' opinion on the white proto-sampler of agony and you'll see what I mean.

So, with the software option, you can decide whether you like Chamberlain horns better than a MkIV's. The alternative is to buy tape frames from Streetly and make good freinds with Patrick Warren, Jon Brion and Mitchell Froom.

I found the guy on EBAY, and he's still selling them:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MELLOTRON-SAMPLE-CD ... dZViewItem

Ask all the right questions before you buy. You can't lose much at only $20. Even though I dread the idea of loading one sound per key (I use Reason), this is tempting for me as well.

I'll ask one more time - did anyone watch the movie at that link I posted? It's really worth it.

[endofanera]

I'll ask one more time - did anyone watch the movie at that link I posted? It's really worth it.

I did.

It was hilarious. Highly recommended.

[olivier]

"I disagree that tape lag doesn't show up on samples"

what is this shit ??
I got a M400 and there is no lag at all ! a mellotron well serviced rocks

[Mayfair]

"I disagree that tape lag doesn't show up on samples"

what is this shit ??
I got a M400 and there is no lag at all ! a mellotron well serviced rocks

Many of the cheaper models have weaker motors. Yes, you can upgrade to more powerful motors. Still, many out there get the lag going when 5 or more keys are depressed at the same time and it has become kind of a common characteristic heard a lot from those instruments.

[olivier]

no it's not the motors that is responsible for the thing you mention as lag . but the controler board ( CMC10) . the motors is not weak at all but the board is not very efficient . this board adjut the speed of tape according the pressure on the capstan which is higher when many keys are pressed . just replace it by a SMS 2 and you can sit on the keyboard without any pitch problem . so as I say a mellotron well serviced rocks . but yes some of them are worn out just like some vintage guitar needs care etc ..